Breaking Free: Building An Authentic Business Beyond the Cults & Gurus (Guest Elaine Williams) Ep. 120

In this episode, Heather Zeitzwolfe sits down with Elaine Williams (speech & video coach) from Captivate The Crowd to discuss the allure and pitfalls of business gurus and cults. 

They delve deep into:

• The attraction and potential dangers of following business gurus and cults.
• The initial inspiration from a guru and the subsequent journey.
• Evaluating the real benefits and drawbacks of guru-led advice.
• The hidden costs involved in terms of time, money, and energy.
• Exposing the cult-like tactics prevalent in MLMs and pyramid schemes.
• The fine line between self-improvement and mind control 
• Using critical thinking to know what truly resonates and when to step back.
• Practical tips for creating an authentic business that aligns with your individual values.

The duo emphasizes the importance of escaping the "guru maze" and embarking on a business journey that truly aligns ethically with one's values. The episode encourages listeners to build genuine, authentic businesses that are true to themselves and to approach everything with an open mind, steering clear of blindly following the herd.

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Transcript

MacBook Pro Microphone: 0:00

Hey everyone. This is Heather Zeitzwolfe, and you're listening to Get Radical With Your Business. I know it's been a while since I've put out a podcast episode. Oh my God. But I'm back again. And I'm with my friend, Elaine Williams, who is a speech and video coach. We are talking about business cults gurus and the blurred lines between. Self-improvement and when it starts to be like brainwashing, I hope you enjoy this conversation and it makes you think about some of the people that you follow. Some of the influencers are you following them at a cult-like status? Or are you questioning what they tell you? It's so important for us to think for ourselves. We can learn from people. I love to follow people. I learned from people all the time. I read tons and tons of books. I'm a lifelong learner. But I also want to keep an open mind to the possibilities they don't have all the answers. Maybe doesn't resonate with me and I don't blindly follow somebody because they tell me this is the way. Always keep an open mind here is my conversation with Elaine Williams about breaking free. Building an authentic business beyond the cults and gurus.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 1:27

I started thinking about this Elaine how I've fallen down the guru trap and I have this thing that sometimes things feel like a cult, and I will step back because I'm like, this feels like a cult, and and so I did a little bit. I have been in a few of those. there's many things that can be business cults. It can be like MLMs are considered sometimes like a cult corporations can be like a cult. We're going to talk about all these different things. And I've. experimented with, gurus and things like that. And you spend money and then afterwards, you're like what was that about? What is your experience, Elaine? What have you done

Elaine Williams: 2:03

over the years? How long do you have, sister? I'm going to change the names because. I don't want to disparage anybody, but if, if anyone is curious or horrified feel free to reach out to me, but I'm not going to say the names, I had some friends that were in this energy guy stuff had known them for a long time and they were both like glowing and happy and lean. And I thought, wow, and I was pretty burnt at the time I was working 50, 60 hour weeks and. Hiatus, like something's got to give, I got it. And I joined the thing. even though I love the energy work about it and I love the community, what always was weird was there was like such a reverence for the guy let's just call him Dr. Gary. they would be like, it's Dr. G. It's Dr. Gary. Dr. Gary. Oh, Dr. Gary. And don't get me wrong. I love teachers. I would be dead if I hadn't had some amazing teachers and mentors. Like I'm a huge fan. I've been a coach since forever. Before I was a coach when people thought that meant like you coach soccer. I was a coach before there were so many coaches. I was studying with Debbie Ford in 2004. And so I've been around the block a lot. even though I loved the energy of it and I knew that it was healing me in some ways, there was always a part of me My gut was always like, of the way people spoke about the head guy. And it was always like, Oh, Ooh. I always thought. I don't want to get dependent on one person. whatever your religion is or not you have meditation teachers they're not like, you must follow me. They're like, no, you got to keep meditating and go to some yoga and get off the coffee or whatever. Right. anyway, so I'm grateful. So anyway, I was in this work, I would still go see this person. I know that it helped me. I was always a little bit like, and then the person itself, he would like miss calls. He would reschedule. And then he'd yell at you. I remember one time I had a call that I paid for and scheduled. And he was like, I'm running late. I'm running late. I'm running late. So we played, we did that for 45, 50 minutes. And then he was like, I'm going to have to reschedule. And so the next day when we're on that call, he's like, why are you driving right now? This is your call. And I was like, because we had to reschedule because of you, anyway, so I'm so grateful. I always had one foot out and AA says, take what you need, leave the rest. long story short. I'm in and out and there were all these volunteers. that's always a little bit of a red flag too, because they would look, I remember I would go to these events and they would look exhausted. And I used to think, aren't they supposed to be like. Lift it up from being in this energy bottom line, I go and I have like my final treatment with this person who tells me, okay, you got to get take an uber because you couldn't drive after it was like a heavy, intense mistake. Size your cupping. It was all this. It was great. Great work. The work itself was great. He's like, take an Uber and meet me over there. You got to get over to this thing. So I remember like busting my ass out of the Airbnb to take an Uber. And then I sat there waiting in his hallway for three hours. And when he finally strolled up, he had been to Whole Foods. And I remember just thinking, was this a test? Did I misunderstand? After that whole experience, I just took a step back because I was like, my gut was just like, something is not right. And then come to find out, a year and a half later, or, recently my friends said, Oh my God, all this stuff came out about Dr. Gary. And it turns out he'd been misusing his power sexually, did it, all these different things and it all came out and he wouldn't take responsibility for it. And my friend called me and she said, I want to acknowledge you because it was very cult like and you knew something was off and then you took yourself out. So I really want to acknowledge you for that. And I'm sharing that not that I'm so great, but as a 55 year old business woman, I've had to retrain myself to listen to my gut because there were many times I did not. And so I'm just going to encourage anybody. Take what you need and leave the rest. And if you ever felt like things are too weird or too intense, or it just feels off, it's okay to step back, go for a walk, say, you know what? I don't know if I can come to the conference.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 6:31

You could invest in a lot of these gurus, spend a lot of money and feel, you're so invested that you don't want to walk away. But if it doesn't feel right, it's okay to walk away. It's okay to make mistakes in your business. I think like a lot of these business gurus, there's a lot of great things about Tony Robbins, but if all you're doing is just going to his events and you're just spending lots of money and you're not actually working on your business, what is the point? I think sometimes people get so caught up in the guru nature of getting ready to get ready and not taking action.

Elaine Williams: 7:03

Can I piggyback on that too, Heather? I'm grateful for every single course I've ever done because I've learned either this was amazing or, oh my gosh, this is the worst thing I've ever, I never want to be a teacher like that. I really always try to see what's the lesson, what's the lesson. And this is very known. Peak Potentials was like the fastest growing personal development company for a long time. It really catapulted a lot of people, but they're also a whole bunch of lawsuits. That came out about it for lots and lots of reasons. And I won't go into the whole thing, there was like a three day basic weekend. You're looking at money and, I loved it. I always ran into people that I knew from Toastmasters and landmark, it's like my people I remember loving it and having some aha's and I signed up for train the trainer and I love train the trainer and train the trainer one and two. And I got some amazing training and also just some really powerful feedback for myself as a speaker trainer, blah, blah, blah. But there was a huge gap though. Each, programs would be like 3, 000 for two, it would depend, but then there was a thing called the quantum leap and it was like 75 K. And you got to do all the programs part of this. And Tony Robbins says this too, of there's jumping, there's dancing, there's music, there's high energy. So people get used to all those endorphins, right? Seeing the same people and it feels good, especially if you used to go clubbing a lot, or I remember thinking, this is so fun, but luckily you'd be proud of me, Heather. I was disciplined. So I only did a few courses. I wanted to do the quantum leap, but I knew I don't have, that's crazy for me where I am right now, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I did train the trainer one. And then I did a whole bunch of other things I'm doing comedy. I'm training as a life coach. I'm working on my speaking. I'm, and I had to postpone train the trainer too for a while. And they finally were like, okay, this is the last one we're doing. You have to come to LA if you want to do this. And I had already paid for it. I go to LA and there's been like a gap. Since I've been in the community, right? I don't know, a year, two, something. So I'm at train the train, I'm running into people and I'm talking to other people. And it's always Hey, what have you done? Oh, have you done warrior? Have you done? I kept meeting people who were bankrupt, who had lost their house. And they were like we're going into foreclosure, but we're really positive about this transition. And I remember sitting there thinking, don't, cause I was like, You know, and I kept thinking, close your mouth, close your mouth. And I met several couples who had done the quantum leap together, and they had gotten so addicted to feeling good, jumping on planes, charging everything, saying, okay, I'm going to manifest this, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this. And they had all the vision boards, and they had all the training, but they had not done any of the implementation. Or... Probably had done very little because the intensity of the programs. And so they were writing the high of the programs and they had gone bankrupt. And I remember thinking, learn from this Elaine, learn from this, don't judge, but learn from this. And I was so grateful that I Had not done because, you get excited in the moment and people are running back to the room and, the head dude, he was a very charismatic guy there were a lot of things out of integrity with this company. I'll say and that's all I need to say. I called them once to tell them about their real estate guy, what was going on with him and they didn't blink an eye and they kept putting him on the stage. So I remember once I saw that, I said, I'm done. But I learned so much from the whole process, but I'll never forget meeting people who had so bought the drink, the Kool Aid. They have lost themselves. They have lost their houses in the process. And it was like, Oh my

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 10:47

God. That happens a lot. And that happens with people that get invested with,

Elaine Williams: 10:52

Like Tony Robbins. I met a lot of people from Tony Robbins.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 10:55

a lot of people want to have that quick fix And there's some really interesting articles online about these smaller gurus. So Tony Robbins is like big, everybody knows his name, but there are these other gurus that come on line and like promise I'll show you all about dropshipping or I'll explain to you about, these different get, rich schemes

Elaine Williams: 11:14

on Amazon. you know how much volume you have to make enough money from being a bill? I love affiliate marketing. I started out as an internet marketer doing affiliate stuff. Love it. But my experience with Amazon, it's like three penny. You spend so much time and energy setting things up. The volume that you have to do is crazy. And I don't know the latest stuff, but yeah.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 11:34

like you said it, they were riding that hype I don't know if you saw the there was a documentary on Lulu Roe or something like that.

Elaine Williams: 11:42

Those tights. Oh God.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 11:44

And so people were like, they had that energy of yes, you know, they were all into it and they were like, find these leggings. But all these people were sitting on all this inventory of leggings in their house they couldn't unload. All the

Elaine Williams: 11:55

time with other MLMs.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 11:57

The data shows that like 99 percent of the people that are in these MLMs do not make any money. In fact, they lose money where there's only about 1 percent of the people who actually do make money. And they're the ones that are like, at the

Elaine Williams: 12:10

top. I do want to say in defense, like I do know people that are breaking even like they love the products. they sell them. And it covers their use of the product. So I know a lot of people that do it like a hobby, but they call it a business. And then I know people who've done very well in certain arenas. And I do think that there are some companies that do have integrity. I don't want to make this blanket

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 12:34

statement. Oh yeah, exactly. Exactly. And

Elaine Williams: 12:36

I think Sometimes giving somebody some hope is worth a lot of fucking money. Excuse my French. Yeah. You know what I mean? And you're in a dead end job. You're in a dead end marriage or relationship. You feel like you cannot get caught up. I went to college and this or whatever. So sometimes I think giving somebody some inspiration and hope to do something different, to stretch. Sometimes that can be amazing. It's the bait and switch that bothers me. Exactly.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 13:03

I have friends that do MLMs and they love the product and, there could be cosmetics or whatever. And it could be like, they put on parties, they have fun. And it's like you said, it's almost like a hobby business kind of thing, it's the companies I'm talking about where it's like the whole family has been like indoctrinated into this thing. And now they're putting their house up for mortgage and then there's this competition where it's like, Oh, these people got a car and there's this weird thing of like this, fake status thing going on mean, it goes back to all the way to like Amway and yes, there are, good ones. They have good products and people, that's fine. I just don't want people to get caught up in some kind of pyramid scheme where they lose everything,

Elaine Williams: 13:42

What I hear the theme of it is like slowing down and that's why Heather is so great. I'm so excited to be starting your program next week. It's so great when you can have a trusted advisor just help you with nonjudgment and go, okay, you're having fun selling blah, blah, blah. Let's look at. So you're spending this much a month on dah, dah, dah, you know, let's really look at the numbers so you can just be clear with yourself. I know I've, lied to myself. I'm doing a business and it's like, well, Elaine, acting, I love acting. Did I make money in acting? I did. Did I spend a lot more than I made? Yeah. technically I've been a professional entertainer my entire life, but if you looked at all the classes and the workshops and the two degrees, I'm sure that would outweigh it. Now, am I using it in my coaching? Absolutely. I wouldn't change any of that. Yeah. But. I think it's just great to be clear and empowered instead of lying to yourself. And, to me, Heather, like admitting, you know what, I made a mistake. When I, bought this house in Philadelphia and I was gonna rehab it and flip it or whatever, and finally admitting that it was a huge mistake and finally letting go after sleepless nights, thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars, heroin kids, so much Life threatening phone calls. I could go on and on. It's hard to say, this is my idea. I had a partner who's da, not thinking he had an agenda, but finally admitting, I made a mistake. I've got to let this go now. that takes, it's hard. and I didn't learn that. I didn't learn that from my family. I didn't learn that from school. So I think that's one of the hardest.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 15:27

yeah. another thing in defensive, like the MLMs, like I Googled business gurus and predominantly they're men, there's a few like, Marie Forleo and some other people that are considered female gurus, but for most part, they're men, women, if they want to start a business, oftentimes an easy entry is. Through an MLM, they get exposed to that. companies oftentimes have great training programs for them to learn how to sell, so it can allow them an easy entryway into starting a business. want to be clear that I'm like, I'm separating the ones from like the ones that are like predatory just rip every cent out of you,

Elaine Williams: 16:05

yeah. And that's great. That's why it's always good to ask people word of mouth and. If you feel like you want to be come an entrepreneur and, you're looking, or maybe you got invited to come to a thing, just know that Other people have agendas I feel so silly saying this, when I was taking my real estate courses and I was learning all about buy and hold and flipping and selling and I was so invested. It never occurred to me that my friend wanted to make a commission off of me which is so naive. I had several friends and their agenda was to make their commission it was not my best interest actually to buy any of the houses that I bought, but whatever, I own that nobody held a gun to my head. I thought it was a good idea at the time. And I was invested and I wanted to have a female comedy club for female comedians. And that was my vision. And, it blew up when 2008 happened, whatever, but, it never occurred to me that people who I considered friends. Their agenda was to make money off of me, and now I feel like duh, I just, I was new, I was so naive, I just encourage if you've, if somebody's watching this and you're, you've been invited to something, yay, go support your friend, but just know sometimes people have agendas, and it's not always your fault. Best intentions. And that was a really hard lesson for me.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 17:32

Another thing is if it seems too good to be true, chances are it is too good to be true. Like you can make a million by the end of the year, or you can make 20, 000 this month. Like what? Some of this stuff just doesn't add up. And, sure there are possible ways of doing it. But usually there's some kind of runway that happens before you have to put things in place and set things up. And it's just it doesn't instantaneously happen that way. And just because it happened for someone else does not mean that it's going to happen. For you either. Maybe they have connections that you don't have, there's, we are all starting from a different place, but there's so

Elaine Williams: 18:06

many

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 18:06

factors. Yeah. But one thing I want to talk about is some of the warning signs of mind control. I'm guilty of, if I like somebody and what they're saying, I will go down that rabbit hole and buy all their books I got into listening to Dave Ramsey. And I took his course on being a financial coach. I was looking for a financial coaching program and I took it. And there were a few things in there that was like, seemed a little bit Christianity kind of bit and fine with. I'm nothing against religion. I'm not necessarily Christian. I'm spiritual. And, but, it's like one of those things, it's like just in there. Okay. It's okay. But then once I went through the program, like every training was heavy Christianity in there. So it's okay this is, I guess not a hundred percent for me, but I went down to Tennessee. I went to Their big headquarters. And when I was there I didn't realize how popular he was. So When I went to his location in Tennessee, they were building another giant, it was a new facility and they were building another giant building. And they were filming his. Program, but there was like, I'm debt free, you know, and there's tons of people. They're just there to watch. people make this Pilgrimage to go there and meet him. And kind of a crazy thing. And it was cool. But I didn't really understand how culty it was yet so I was down there for the business boutique it was, seminar or whatever. And it was a lot of fun. But it was in hindsight, when I look back at it, very kind of culty type stuff that they were doing, and not necessarily like in a. Like a horrible way, but they get you into their world and then they want you to buy all their products. there was some cult like aspects to it. That was like my warning sign. And then I had some clients that came over to me through their thing. Some of them resonated with me, but other ones didn't, and it was like, I could tell that they were cult-ie like being led they had no other thoughts of how to do finances, except for what Dave Ramsey is going to tell they were just going to follow that path, and not question like, well maybe that doesn't work exactly for me I know we weren't going to name names, but I just named Dave Ramsey.

Elaine Williams: 20:07

Here's the thing. I know he's helped a lot of people. Yeah.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 20:12

And I do think he's has a lot of great things. Right. And people just believe in this one person and that their word is like, God,

Elaine Williams: 20:21

The whole thing is take what you need and leave the rest. Because I used to, I would be like, I'm in. Oh, there was a guy who's based in Vegas who took a lot of my money I learned a lot, it was a painful lesson. On lots of levels. for a year I was in and he's lost a ton of followers because of his lack of integrity. And it's interesting because from what I know, he doesn't seem to have a clue why, which you'd think you would exit interview people or something. But, take what you need and leave the rest. But one of the things I learned to ask myself, even when I get excited is This sounds really cool. is this right for me right

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 20:59

now? That's a great thing to ask yourself. Yeah.

Elaine Williams: 21:02

Speaking of gurus, I love Joe Polish. I love the guy. I love him. I've met him a couple of times. He's made fun of me in my book. He was like, really, your mouth is open on the front and the back, and I was like, it took you seven years to write this. I was like, I couldn't figure out who it was for, but I love him. I love what he does with recovery. I think he has massive integrity. I just love him and one of my dreams is to be in Genius Network and right now it does not make sense for me to be in Genius Network. I could go take out a loan and it's one of my goals. I'm sure some people might say it's a little culty because I know there's a huge, and it's a bro, but there's a lot of women too, but it's very heart center, but I want to be in that community at least for a year and experience that. But right now it does not make sense for lots and lots of reasons.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 21:54

a cult wants you to think like them. They don't want you to think for yourself. that's the part. It's you can have these people that inspire you. They can be gurus and inspire you. But at the end of the day, you also have to be able to make decisions on your own and feel in integrity with yourself and not feel like, oh well, they believe that. So, you know what? I guess I should believe that, even though in my gut, I don't feel like I should believe that. I want you to be true to who they are.

Elaine Williams: 22:20

you know, I'm just going to encourage anybody, if any of this is resonating call Heather, because she is, she has integrity, she will not just take your money and she'll tell you what's really going on if you are confused about your business or whatever. And I, highly recommend working with her. She's a friend and a colleague, I want to say something else because, I grew up. Very dysfunctional, alcoholic, lots of trauma, drama, whatever. And one of my fears was that I would finally make money and I would lose it, but I would, and so I knew I wanted to educate myself. And so that's one reason I was doing millionaire mind and all these different things. And because I could not trust my own family, you know, most people can trust at least one parent. Or one sibling and I just, I didn't have that at the time. I was looking for somebody to mentor me. And even if they weren't. Forever mentors. They got me to move and did I make mistakes? Yes. And did I give people too much credit and power? Probably. I'm grateful because, it got me to move because I knew, okay, I'm waiting tables, I'm running around the country speaking, I'm doing comedy. I love what I do, but I know I cannot keep this pace. Forever. And I don't want to be an 80 year old. You can kiss my grits. Waitress at Mel's diner

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 23:45

inspiration is so important, to have somebody that inspires you and If someone is at their job and they hate their job and they're hearing a podcast with someone speak and they're like, Oh my God, I want to start following this person because they inspire me. I've done the same thing. I'm like, I listened and then I have loved to learn. Again, it could be another shiny object. Like I love to learn so much that like, yes, I'll buy this program because I want to, and I will get super, super excited about it. The thing is that we get excited, we get inspired, but now we have to take action. I think it's so important to work with someone like you or me that are coaches that are like grounded in what we do. We're not being gurus, you know, we can take whatever. You've learned from something else, and now let's put it into work. Elaine, explain what you do with people to help them take it to the next level. They learn from the gurus, then they come to you. They want to be great speakers. They want to be on

Elaine Williams: 24:39

video. Thank you, Heather. Thank you for the question. I just started a new group program, which I just love. So I have these amazing women who do emotional release work. It's so powerful. And they both were like, I need to be doing short form video. I don't know where to start, you know, and so I love. Helping women mature spiritual conscious women who are ready to be seen on a new level. That's my favorite people to work with. We started that and captivate the crowd. And then I also do one on one VIP coaching for people who have big speeches coming up, big opportunities. And one of my video clients, I just got off a call with her. I'm helping her as a bonus. So I'm like, I'm giving her some extra love. I love helping people grow themselves and their voice so that they can grow their business. Because if you're not visible, if you're not out there speaking on some platforms, live on video, online you're not going to have a business. That's just, you Yeah, it's just, it's very hard to keep a business or grow a business. If you are not out in some capacity, depending on your market,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 25:50

we work directly with our clients. You can follow guru. Chances are you're not paying that person to have one on ones with you. If you are, it's going to cost you a fortune. So usually what happens is you join the guru's group and then one of their. Employees will coach you or work with you. And yes, they've been trained by that person, but a lot of times it's not the same kind of attention. I want to say like after the gurus. Do you have any other last thoughts of like, um, the blurred lines between self improvement and like brainwashing. Like it's good to have self improvement. I think that's an important thing to spend money on is to do self improvement. What are your thoughts around that? This

Elaine Williams: 26:28

is great. I'm like, can we do a part two with this? Because clearly I have a lot to say if you need filler come. so I spoke about this guy in Vegas who like, I got invited to his event. I'd heard about him for years, but felt dubious because even though I'd heard about him, he was supposed to be a legend in the college market. Nobody in the college market knew who he was. So there was like, that was a disconnect. I go to his thing. I liked it. I drink the Kool Aid. So I'm there. I have a, the years, like some of it's great. Some of it's not. And then in the end, it was very painful to learn that I'd been lied to and whatever. I vowed like I'm taking a break. That was like 2011, I was really over it because I had the peak potentials thing I studied with Debbie Ford, who I loved her work did not feel set up. Felt completely baited and switched about the training as well, as opposed to having my own life coaching practice. you know, There was just a part of me that was like holding. When I finally was like, okay, it's been a couple of years. You really, you're in a rut girl. I was always, I've never been someone to sit around. Like I was always, I started asking people that I knew and trusted. What's your take on this person? What's your take on this? What's your take on this person? It's just like when I bought my mini Cooper, I did not, you know, what are you reading online? You have no idea if that's a professional copywriter pretending to be Shelly B from Tucson. So I would go in New York city. I would walk up to people and go, excuse me, do you like your mini Cooper? What's the maintenance like, how long have you had it? I did my own research because I knew that was a real person with their family. Getting out of town on Friday or whatever. And so I started asking real people instead of read, because it's just really hard to know what's real online. And so when I finally pulled the plug and I joined a mastermind in 2015. Again, it wasn't some great things, some not so great things, but I learned so much and I needed a big container to finally leave my corporate job, whatever. I don't regret it, even though I believe sometimes we go for one reason and then we get all these other things. I would just say. Get excited and then have a friend or three that you can check in with who know you and I'm not talking the yes Friends because we all have those who are like you're amazing. Yes They'll tell you yes. I'm talking about the friends like heather who'll go well, I mean I don't know if that's really a good idea for you or you know what those genes make your butt look wider Okay. Thank you. Tell me that, Elaine, you've got broccoli in your teeth. That's a true friend to me. learn from everybody, remember that a lot of people have agendas. do all the free trainings and then check in with somebody before you click to buy whatever it is. And I've bought a lot of things and I love supporting my girlfriends in business. I buy things all the time and forget, whatever. And if you don't have real friends like that, you can cultivate that. And call Heather because Heather, we've talked a lot about me. You are so good at systems, which is why I'm starting your program on Monday because I am not, and I will probably be cranky and resistant. Maybe I won't be, but a lot of people like me are creatives and we're just, we're like systems, you mean like Microsoft like, can you tell us a little bit about what

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 29:54

you, yeah, it was actually starting on Tuesday. Which is my birthday, we're going to be putting in place some different systems, but gamifying things to make it. A lot more fun to track things in your business. And I'll be providing uh, worksheets and templates and fun little interactive type of activities to track things. So it's not just doing things in a spreadsheet. I love to make things more visual. Cause I, to me, that's. fun. Not everybody likes to go into a spreadsheet and enter data every day. And, that's not always

Elaine Williams: 30:24

not everybody. Are you kidding? I break it out into hive. you know, I've come a long way if you had told me five years ago, I would be editing. And doing some of the detail oriented things that I'm doing right now, I would have laughed in your face. So I have matured and worked on cultivating some things. Now, ultimately, I can't wait to have a bigger team to pass some of this back to at the moment. I'm doing some of it. But If you are willing to be uncomfortable and if you're willing to be coached, you can learn skills that you don't think you can do. If I can do it, oh honey child, you can do it.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 31:02

Yes, totally. There's going to be no cults or gurus. And it's funny, I, I looked up the meaning of cult, but I didn't look up guru there's some people in the business Gary V what's the ClickFunnel guy. Russell Brunson. Yeah, I, I have one of his books, yeah. So I have three, I think he's.

Elaine Williams: 31:19

I think he's adorable. He's very, he doesn't like cussing on his stage. He's very committed to his wife and his family. He really is a goofball internet crazy dude, but in a good way, I'm not a click funnels person for lots of reasons, but I know a lot of people who love his stuff. if somebody really resonates with you, check them but also keep in touch with your gut.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 31:42

Yeah, exactly. And, there is that sort of bro y marketing kind of guy that guru like there are definitely like the male centric gurus and then the very few female, but there, there are like people like, I think Tony Robbins is like a good example of crossing both lines. Like he's approachable for women, you know, he's stands tall. And, he doesn't come across to me as like a bro y. There's a sensitive side to him. I don't know. Like he's strong,

Elaine Williams: 32:07

but there is a, yeah. And, another guy that I really loved learning from I was in his world for two years. I had heard of him. And then I met somebody who was like, I'm going to the thing. Are you going? And I was like, oh my gosh, I just. Got a free ticket, there are a lot of guys who follow him, it's interesting because I know quite a few women who've tried his particular formula and didn't exactly work for them. But again, you never know exactly what was the execution and the market and the messaging. There's a lot of factors, just like a movie. It's really hard to make a good movie because there's so many places you can make it bad. Right. But take what you need and leave the rest it's a journey,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 32:50

the gurus, I mean, that's just, semantics. We don't, I don't know what exactly what the definition for a guru is. We know what the real guru is, but as far as like a business guru, but I mean, you could say like. oprah Winfrey was a guru or she is a guru, she had a, like a level of influence. If Oprah said to get something like read this book, people are going to do it, it's but she wasn't culty about it. Like it wasn't a cult, but it was like, but she has a level of influence. That's like remarkable, and so as business owners, we want to have influence. We just don't, we want to do it in an ethical way. that's the the difference.

Elaine Williams: 33:22

And here's what I want to say about Oprah. She has evolved clearly. She has lived her life publicly and made some huge mistakes and owned them and cleaned it up and rebooted. She made a big mistake with her school in South Africa for a while when she went on her own with her own, that it was tanking one of the reasons I still love her is, she admits things and course corrects and whatever, and I love how much she gives back and, so it's just great to look at, I guess one of the thing we probably should do a part two is, sometimes people. I've seen a lot of people come and go, right? I've seen people have a super hot program and for whatever reason they're getting a lot of visibility or whatever and then they disappear. And that's okay. Maybe that's their path. Yeah, just check everybody out, read the reviews, if you're contemplating joining a program or working with a coach, it is absolutely appropriate to ask for you a reference reference. Run. Run seriously, because I know I have clients, Heather's one of them, but I know I have people that I can say, I just got two new clients because of a reference, because I delivered value and I care and I, give a lot and I'm happy to do that, it's always okay to say, I'm not sure. Let me think about it. I don't know. When you're in the sales conversation, they may not like that, but it's you and your money. it's absolutely okay to say, you know what I I'd like to talk to some other people and who've been in the program.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 34:54

that's a really good tip. Cause testimonials on a website is one thing, but to actually talk to somebody and find out is. completely different. absolutely. Yeah, that's a good tip., oh, I did have a thought that kind of ran through my brain earlier because we've been talking about don't drink the Kool Aid that's from Jim Jones. Yeah, in the 70s. a mass suicide. Terrible. But you know the thing about Jim Jones's. Yeah. If you follow his history in the beginning, he was actually doing great things in the community. I think it was in San Francisco, he brought together like the black and white communities and he was helping the poor and we was doing all these great things. I think the drugs and the controlling of women came later. So we started off this great person. It could be that some of these people just become megalomaniacs over time. So they may start out a great, and then it's they turn into a different person. You never know.

Elaine Williams: 35:44

And, another person, another person who I really admire from afar. is Brendan Bouchard. I have a bunch of his books. I have been to one of his events. I came late because I had a speaking gig. Go figure. But I was blown away at the community, the involvement and he's such a goofy white guy. People say I remind them of him, which I think is a huge compliment. But anyway, so he's. Grown, grown, grown, Grown, grown, right? So now he travels with like security and, some people are like, Whoa. And I've heard different things about some of his trainings, whatever, but you never know is that his egomaniac or did he have some bad stuff happen? You never know what's really going on in somebody's life. So again, take what you need, leave the rest, ask yourself, is this something I need right now?

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 36:35

And if they're telling you that you need to sell all your cars and send them the money, run.

Elaine Williams: 36:40

Or if you're, at an event and they're bragging that they just signed somebody up, who's homeless and living in her car, you might not want to do business with people like that. Yeah. I've seen that happen. I've seen that happen where somebody was like, Oh my God, I didn't know how I was going to do it. And I've been living in my car and somebody said they would give me the down posit. And so I'm, I signed up and then, and we're all like, Okay. And it's like a 10, 12, 000 program. And then the very next day, the person holding the event talked about how they take all the people to court if they break their contract and how brutal they are. And I remember just thinking, I have to leave. I can't be a part of this. This is against my heart, here's the thing. Everybody has a right to run their business. so I just said, okay, I'm out and I'm not going to work with this person. And I know tons of people who've started to work with this person and then gotten out of it or whatever. But it's okay, that's how they run their business. Does not vibe with me, whatever, take it all with a big grain of salt and just call Heather.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 37:44

Yeah, take what you need and then leave and just always think for yourself. encourage people to Think critically about things like really examine it and don't just take it at face value. And especially today's world where now we can create something AI. Like now, when I looked at a photograph, I'm like, is this even real? I'm like, you were talking about that

Elaine Williams: 38:03

when you were watching TV the other night, we were like, is that even the person or is that AI version of the person? It's so hard to know. Yeah.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 38:11

Yeah. I always want people to think with a, critical mind, our school system teaches us that we have to have the right answer. I love school. I got A's, you know, and, it's very regimented and I'm not, I think school is very important, but I think also thinking for yourself is super important. And speaking out there, I want people to have the guts to raise their hand and be like, no, I don't agree with that,

Elaine Williams: 38:32

when I was taking my real estate courses, this is like 2008 7 2007. And my teacher would say, I'm trying to teach you critical thinking and I literally was like, what, I had never remembered hearing that term before, and I had studied drama and singing and dancing and, theory, but I don't remember thinking a deal through or looking at the numbers and so I'm grateful for all that training, We'll have to do a part two cause I know people are probably like, oh my God, this is so much, but yeah, Heather, this has been a blast. And I encourage everybody to follow their dreams, but just be smart about it and it's okay to go slow,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 39:12

slow and steady. Yeah the silver bullet that's going to make it all great, especially in six weeks, 10 weeks, or you're supposed to go to a three day conference and like, yes, maybe you will be transformed, but sometimes that there's that honeymoon period and then it deflates and now you're like well, now what,

Elaine Williams: 39:28

you need structure, a coach. And implementation, which is I call it, it's not the sexy stuff sitting in home and editing is not sexy, like sitting there, spreadsheet, whatever we're going to be doing next week, not sexy, but if you gamify it, I'll come play.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 39:47

And accountability. So the gurus are, they're not going to give you accountability. Not at that level. You need Interaction. Real interaction. Okay. Awesome, Elaine. Thank you so much.

Elaine Williams: 39:56

Okay. All right. Thanks, Heather. Love you.